Discussion:
What size speaker wire for longer runs?
(too old to reply)
glw82664
2005-06-06 12:28:50 UTC
Permalink
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using. Maybe
upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending the money I'm just
looking for ideas here. Thanks in advance.
Dimitrios Tzortzakakis
2005-06-06 12:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
generally cable splicing causes a lot of problems, as I daily experience.To
troubleshoot the connection between the receiver, you have to be certain
that it's a whole length of speaker cable, not definitely $5/ft. oxygen free
cable.Probably in radio shack you can find some cheap speaker cable (30 cent
a meter would do).If it were mains wiring I would suggest you hired an
electrician, but here the worse could be the receiver relays clicking off
load.

--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering, freelance electrician
FH von Iraklion-Kreta, freiberuflicher Elektriker
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
Post by glw82664
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using. Maybe
upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending the money I'm just
looking for ideas here. Thanks in advance.
Agent 86
2005-06-06 13:12:55 UTC
Permalink
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an old
pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite speakers
on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about 30 feet of
wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers. Yesterday, I moved the
receiver to a room farther away and had to splice in about an extra 20
feet of wire. There are actually three splices in each wire now due to
obstacles and such. Now, when I turn up the volume to even a moderate
level the receiver stops transmiting the signal and starts clicking. I
presume the extra wire I added is the problem. The wire I have been
using, with success in other parts of the house, is using a load of
telephone line that I came in to for free. It has eight wires in each run
so I split 4 positive and 4 negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I
have checked, re-checked, and re-checked again all the connections and
they are correct so I presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I
am using. Maybe upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending the
money I'm just looking for ideas here. Thanks in advance.
I'd look for bad splices first. Beyond that, telephone wire
really isn't suitable for speaker connections. Each of your 4 wires is
(approximately) 22-24 AWG. When you bundle them together, they may be
close to 14 AWG in overall size, but they won't have the current carrying
capacity of a real 14 AWG wire made if many very tiny strands.

14 AWG should be fine for a 30' run with 8 ohm speakers. 12 AWG would be
better. Lamp cord is fine. Don't waste money on expensive crap like
Monster cable. BUT, if you run wires inside walls or in conduit, make sure
you use wire that is properly rated for that use.

There's a chart showing cable loss over distance at various wire gauge &
speaker impedance at the Yorkville site. Look about 1/3 of the way down
this page:
http://www.yorkville.com/default.asp?p1=6&p2=17&p_id=26
mc
2005-06-06 14:32:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Agent 86
I'd look for bad splices first. Beyond that, telephone wire
really isn't suitable for speaker connections. Each of your 4 wires is
(approximately) 22-24 AWG. When you bundle them together, they may be
close to 14 AWG in overall size, but they won't have the current carrying
capacity of a real 14 AWG wire made if many very tiny strands.
My understanding is exactly the opposite -- that separate strands (of the
correct total cross sectional area) are better than a single wire. That's
because of "skin effect" (tendency of high frequencies to be carried at the
periphery of the wire, although that is probably negligible at audio
frequencies) and also because of better heat dissipation.

Can someone elucidate?
Arny Krueger
2005-06-07 00:07:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by mc
Post by Agent 86
I'd look for bad splices first. Beyond that, telephone
wire
Post by mc
Post by Agent 86
really isn't suitable for speaker connections. Each of
your 4 wires
Post by mc
Post by Agent 86
is (approximately) 22-24 AWG. When you bundle them
together, they
Post by mc
Post by Agent 86
may be close to 14 AWG in overall size, but they won't
have the
Post by mc
Post by Agent 86
current carrying capacity of a real 14 AWG wire made if
many very
Post by mc
Post by Agent 86
tiny strands.
My understanding is exactly the opposite -- that separate
strands (of
Post by mc
the correct total cross sectional area) are better than a
single
Post by mc
wire.
Unfortunately, yetther old wife's tale.

(1) Speaker cables aren't generally large enough to have
appreciable losses in the audio band due to skin effect.

(2) Stranding the wire doesn't reduce the diameter of the
conductive part of the wire. Even insulating them makes no
difference, because skin effect is based on magnetic
coupling, not conductivity.
SSJVCmag
2005-06-07 00:17:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by mc
Post by Agent 86
I'd look for bad splices first. Beyond that, telephone wire
really isn't suitable for speaker connections. Each of your 4 wires is
(approximately) 22-24 AWG. When you bundle them together, they may be
close to 14 AWG in overall size, but they won't have the current carrying
capacity of a real 14 AWG wire made if many very tiny strands.
My understanding is exactly the opposite -- that separate strands (of the
correct total cross sectional area) are better than a single wire. That's
because of "skin effect" (tendency of high frequencies to be carried at the
periphery of the wire, although that is probably negligible at audio
frequencies) and also because of better heat dissipation.
Can someone elucidate?
Skin effect is really really important if you have any real program content
you care about in the upper radio end of the spectrum
mc
2005-06-07 01:18:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by SSJVCmag
Post by mc
My understanding is exactly the opposite -- that separate strands (of the
correct total cross sectional area) are better than a single wire.
That's
because of "skin effect" (tendency of high frequencies to be carried at the
periphery of the wire, although that is probably negligible at audio
frequencies) and also because of better heat dissipation.
Can someone elucidate?
Skin effect is really really important if you have any real program content
you care about in the upper radio end of the spectrum
Like I said, "negligible at audio frequencies"...

I mentioned it because it's not a reason to *avoid* using multiple strands.
Arny Krueger
2005-06-09 01:33:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by mc
Post by SSJVCmag
Post by mc
My understanding is exactly the opposite -- that
separate strands (of the
Post by mc
Post by SSJVCmag
Post by mc
correct total cross sectional area) are better than a
single wire.
Post by mc
Post by SSJVCmag
Post by mc
That's
because of "skin effect" (tendency of high frequencies
to be carried at
Post by mc
Post by SSJVCmag
Post by mc
the
periphery of the wire, although that is probably
negligible at audio
Post by mc
Post by SSJVCmag
Post by mc
frequencies) and also because of better heat
dissipation.
Post by mc
Post by SSJVCmag
Post by mc
Can someone elucidate?
Skin effect is really really important if you have any
real program
Post by mc
Post by SSJVCmag
content
you care about in the upper radio end of the spectrum
Like I said, "negligible at audio frequencies"...
I mentioned it because it's not a reason to *avoid* using
multiple strands.

Skin effect is also not a reason to choose multiple strands.
dizzy
2005-06-10 00:20:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by SSJVCmag
Skin effect is really really important if you have any real program content
you care about in the upper radio end of the spectrum
Idiot.
Richard Crowley
2005-06-10 02:11:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by dizzy
Post by SSJVCmag
Skin effect is really really important if you have any real program content
you care about in the upper radio end of the spectrum
Idiot.
Thank you for your thoughtful and informative contribution to
the discussion.

Plonk.
Agent 86
2005-06-07 00:41:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by mc
I'd look for bad splices first. Beyond that, telephone wire really isn't
suitable for speaker connections. Each of your 4 wires is
(approximately) 22-24 AWG. When you bundle them together, they may be
close to 14 AWG in overall size, but they won't have the current
carrying capacity of a real 14 AWG wire made if many very tiny strands.
My understanding is exactly the opposite -- that separate strands (of the
correct total cross sectional area) are better than a single wire. That's
because of "skin effect" (tendency of high frequencies to be carried at
the periphery of the wire, although that is probably negligible at audio
frequencies) and also because of better heat dissipation.
Skin effect isn't an issue.

But I wouldn't consider 4 strands to be a *real* stranded cable. When
you've only got 4 strands bundled together, you've got a pretty high
percentage of air to copper. And air's not a particularly good conductor.
Joe Sensor
2005-06-07 01:18:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Agent 86
Skin effect isn't an issue.
But I wouldn't consider 4 strands to be a *real* stranded cable. When
you've only got 4 strands bundled together, you've got a pretty high
percentage of air to copper. And air's not a particularly good conductor.
Pretty high percentage of air to copper? What does this mean? And there
would be nothing wrong with 1 strand!
Agent 86
2005-06-07 02:19:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Sensor
Pretty high percentage of air to copper? What does this mean? And there
would be nothing wrong with 1 strand!
Maybe not the best way to say it? Try this...

Agreed, there's nothing wrong with 1 strand (solid wire). The OP
mentioned 14 AWG, so we'll go with that. A solid piece of 14 AWG wire will
have a certain current carrying capacity, and also a certain resistance
and impedance for a given length. If you're going to permanently install
it from your house to your deck, It'll do fine.

If you need to move it around from time to time (get your speakers out of
the snow, for instance), you probably want something a bit less stiff. So
you run down to Home Depot (or Radio Shack, or Best Buy, or Tweeter) & get
some 14 AWG zip cord (or speaker cable). If you look close, you'll notice
that it's made up of lots (and lots) of teeney-tiny strands of wire that
fit really close together so there's not much air space between them. The
air's not particularly important, but the implication is that if you use
enough strands so they fit together tightly, you have *almost* as much
metal in a stranded wire as in a solid wire of the same gauge.

But the OP made his *approximately* 14 gauge wire from only 4 strands of
telephone wire. Since circles don't fit together very well, there's gonna
be a lot of air space in the middle. Again, it's not the air that's
important, it's the metal that's *not* in there, because it's the metal
that carries the juice (lightning notwithstanding).
Eiron
2005-06-07 06:50:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Agent 86
some 14 AWG zip cord (or speaker cable). If you look close, you'll notice
that it's made up of lots (and lots) of teeney-tiny strands of wire that
fit really close together so there's not much air space between them. The
air's not particularly important, but the implication is that if you use
enough strands so they fit together tightly, you have *almost* as much
metal in a stranded wire as in a solid wire of the same gauge.
This must be one of those schoolboy mathematics exercises:
Calculate the percentage of copper in a cable of n strands.

I make it 100% for 1 strand, 88% for 2 strands, 87% for 3 strands,
83% for 4 strands and 91% for many strands.
Of course my geometry isn't what it was forty years ago.

If you want 100% copper in your multi-strand wire you must fill the gaps
with even smaller strands and sell it for $thousands per metre.
--
Eiron.
Richard Crowley
2005-06-07 19:41:28 UTC
Permalink
"Eiron" wrote ...
Post by Eiron
Post by Agent 86
some 14 AWG zip cord (or speaker cable). If you look close, you'll notice
that it's made up of lots (and lots) of teeney-tiny strands of wire that
fit really close together so there's not much air space between them. The
air's not particularly important, but the implication is that if you use
enough strands so they fit together tightly, you have *almost* as much
metal in a stranded wire as in a solid wire of the same gauge.
Calculate the percentage of copper in a cable of n strands.
I make it 100% for 1 strand, 88% for 2 strands, 87% for 3 strands,
83% for 4 strands and 91% for many strands.
Of course my geometry isn't what it was forty years ago.
Fortunetely, we don't have to rely on high-school geometry.
Wire (both solid and stranded) is rated in terms of its cross-
sectional area of copper (or whatever metal). In fact the
larger sizes of wire are named after their cross-sectional
areas For example see this chart...
http://www.aseapower.com/technotes/tn_004.htm

Stranded wire is rated by the combined cross-sectional area
of all the strands added together. The airspace between them
is not part of the calculation.
Ty Ford
2005-06-07 13:42:09 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:19:27 -0400, Agent 86 wrote
(in article <***@control.gov>):

I use automotive jumper cables from Pep Boys. They come in pairs with really
heavy duty clamps.

I had to tack weld them to my monitor terminals, but that was sort of fun.

Regards,

Ty Ford





-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Joe Sensor
2005-06-07 14:34:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ty Ford
I use automotive jumper cables from Pep Boys. They come in pairs with really
heavy duty clamps.
I had to tack weld them to my monitor terminals, but that was sort of fun.
But are you losing 3 db where through the weld. ;)

A bit of overkill if you ask me. But I bet you are getting as good or
even better results over those $8000 speaker cables.
Ty Ford
2005-06-08 00:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Sensor
Post by Ty Ford
I use automotive jumper cables from Pep Boys. They come in pairs with really
heavy duty clamps.
I had to tack weld them to my monitor terminals, but that was sort of fun.
But are you losing 3 db where through the weld. ;)
A bit of overkill if you ask me. But I bet you are getting as good or
even better results over those $8000 speaker cables.
They made a bit of a bump under the rug, but once we put in the raised floor
and cut channels for the cables, everything was fine.

Ty

-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Arny Krueger
2005-06-07 15:06:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ty Ford
I use automotive jumper cables from Pep Boys. They come in
pairs with
Post by Ty Ford
really heavy duty clamps.
I had to tack weld them to my monitor terminals, but that
was sort of
Post by Ty Ford
fun.
I was thinking that the speaker manufacturers have misssed
an opportunity - add cables, add the margin to the speaker
price, and profit. All sorts of opportunity for hype.
Obviously tack-welding the speaker cables to the drivers or
crossover terminals avoids possibility for connectors to
mess up the sound. ;-)

BTW ElectroVoice seems to have picked up on this. My new
ZX5-60PI monitors came with built in speaker cables - about
6 feet long. There's even a notch for holding them molded
into the enclosure. ;-)
Arny Krueger
2005-06-07 04:02:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Agent 86
Skin effect isn't an issue.
But I wouldn't consider 4 strands to be a *real* stranded
cable. When
Post by Agent 86
you've only got 4 strands bundled together, you've got a
pretty high
Post by Agent 86
percentage of air to copper. And air's not a particularly
good
Post by Agent 86
conductor.
Pretty high percentage of air to copper? What does this
mean?

It probably means we've got someone who seems to be confused
with how wire is specified. Wire is specified in terms of
actual area of conductor. Any air between the individual
conductors in a stranded bundle doesn't count.

This means that a standed wire bundle might be a little
larger in diameter than the corresponding solid wire.
And there would be nothing wrong with 1 strand!
Agreed.

It's common mistake to believe that stranding wire does
something about skin effect. It doesn't. Skin effect is a
magnetic effect. As long as there is magnetic coupling
between the strands, the skin effect is about the same. That
means that stranding the wire does nothing to affect skin
effect, and neither does insulating the strands from each
other.

A true low skin effect wire deals with the magnetic effects
by either making the conductor in the shape of a tube, or
winding the strands of stranded wire around an non-magnetic
core. Plastic has been used for the core material of
low-skin-effect wire. However, increasing the diameter of
the conductor usually increases the inductance of the wire
unless the wire is coax. Inductance of speaker cables can be
a larger source of losses than skin effect.

The good news is that skin effect just isn't a problem at
regular audio frequencies. It's not going to diminish the
sheen of cymbals, etc. Unless the speakers have very low
impedance, inductance isn't much of a problem, either.
Joseph Oberlander
2005-06-06 16:58:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by glw82664
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.
Post by glw82664
I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using.
I'd re-run it with two pieces of 12 gauge wire. Those 4 pieces of
telephone wire aren't 14 gauge, btw. The look like it, but in terms
of capacity, they are closer to 20 gauge at best. This is a common
problem people make, in fact, with cat-5 and simmilar wires. It takes
a lot of them together to equal what one (by then, with the insulation
factored in) decent wire will do. Not that it isn't possible, but
most people find it cumbersome compared to using plain 12 or 14 gauge
stranded electrical wire.

Another option might be to get some Romex and run it under the house.
Another option might be to go with self-powered speakers. Then you'd
just be sending a preamp signal which should be no problem.

(Or just get a small amp for the second room - the best solution of
all, IMO)
John O
2005-06-06 17:21:18 UTC
Permalink
Every time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.
Did you forget a decimal point in front of those numbers?

-John O
Lorin David Schultz
2005-06-06 17:27:57 UTC
Permalink
Every time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.
I beg your pardon? How do you figure that?
--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)
Paul Stamler
2005-06-06 18:02:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorin David Schultz
Every time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.
I beg your pardon? How do you figure that?
And even if that were true, that wouldn't explain the relays clicking in and
out, because the splices would be adding resistance which would presumably
reduce current draw.

Two possibilities. First, something is putting a very low-resistance load on
the line, possibly a strand of one of the wires shorting to the other
conductor. It's very thin, so it's not a dead short, but it's still enough
that when the volume goes up, it draws enough current to kick the amp into
protection mode.

Second, the added capacitance of the longer wire is causing the amp to go
unstable, and the protection circuits are kicking in because of that.

I'd rate the first idea as most probable, the second as improbable but not
impossible. Go get some 12 gauge wire, enough to do the run with no splices,
and when you strip it and connect it, keep an eye open for stray strands.

Peace,
Paul
d***@cartchunk.org
2005-06-06 17:52:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.
Uh, well...

Just to prove my own remaining sanity, I just did an experiment
where I took three lengths of 24 gauge stranded wire (4 strands)
and "spliced it." I didn't solder it, I didn't use any crimped
connectors, I didn't use wire nuts or any other such contrivances.
I simply stripped about 3/4" of insulation and twisted it together
between by thumb and forefinger, then wrapped the result with about
1" of electrical tape.

My crude "splices" added approximately 0.005 ohms to the total
resistance of the wire.

Now, you're claiming 2-4 dB per splice, let's take the middle
and say 3 dB. That means half the power is lost in the splice.
That would ONLY be true if the load impedance were on the order
of 0.005 ohms, which I suspect is NOT the case.

Assuming a nominal 8-ohm load, the 0.005 ohms added would result
in 0.0054 dB TOTAL.

Either I'm REAL good at making splcies, or you're REAL bad at making
splices.

In any case, I have seen an untold number of people splice speaker
wire by simply stripping and twisting everything together, which
makes a very effective short circuit on the amplifier. I'd bet
a nickel that we'd find something not unlike this here.
Joseph Oberlander
2005-06-07 08:00:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@cartchunk.org
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.
Uh, well...
Just to prove my own remaining sanity, I just did an experiment
where I took three lengths of 24 gauge stranded wire (4 strands)
and "spliced it." I didn't solder it, I didn't use any crimped
connectors, I didn't use wire nuts or any other such contrivances.
I simply stripped about 3/4" of insulation and twisted it together
between by thumb and forefinger, then wrapped the result with about
1" of electrical tape.
My crude "splices" added approximately 0.005 ohms to the total
resistance of the wire.
Maybe I am off a decimal place. OTOH, if your amp did
what it did, you have a short somewhere and it kicked in
its protection circuit.

(checks) Ah. 2-4db is for radio/TV. So it would be a
small percentage for audio.
Arny Krueger
2005-06-07 10:46:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Post by d***@cartchunk.org
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly?
Every
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Post by d***@cartchunk.org
Post by Joseph Oberlander
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.
Three, plus
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Post by d***@cartchunk.org
Post by Joseph Oberlander
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to
a noticeable
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Post by d***@cartchunk.org
Post by Joseph Oberlander
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.
Uh, well...
Just to prove my own remaining sanity, I just did an
experiment
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Post by d***@cartchunk.org
where I took three lengths of 24 gauge stranded wire (4
strands)
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Post by d***@cartchunk.org
and "spliced it." I didn't solder it, I didn't use any
crimped
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Post by d***@cartchunk.org
connectors, I didn't use wire nuts or any other such
contrivances.
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Post by d***@cartchunk.org
I simply stripped about 3/4" of insulation and twisted it
together
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Post by d***@cartchunk.org
between by thumb and forefinger, then wrapped the result
with about
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Post by d***@cartchunk.org
1" of electrical tape.
My crude "splices" added approximately 0.005 ohms to the
total
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Post by d***@cartchunk.org
resistance of the wire.
Maybe I am off a decimal place.
You're off more than 2 decimal places, almost 3.
Post by Joseph Oberlander
OTOH, if your amp did
what it did, you have a short somewhere and it kicked in
its protection circuit.
(checks) Ah. 2-4db is for radio/TV.
No, its off so far that there is no excuse.
Post by Joseph Oberlander
So it would be a small percentage for audio.
Like good amplifiers, good splices have no audible effects.
;-)
Margaret von B.
2005-06-06 18:14:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Post by glw82664
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.
S-T-U-P-I-D.


Cheers,

Margaret
Steve Urbach
2005-06-06 18:23:02 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:58:07 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end...
3 dbm per RF connector PAIR at microwave frequencies was a *rule of
thumb* I was taught in the US Navy. We were always supposed to
'calibrate' the cable before taking a critical power level measurment.
I can't believe that rule would apply to audio frequencies in any way.

Sounds like the OP has a bad splice (or 2) or has mixed up the
pairing.

, _
, | \ MKA: Steve Urbach
, | )erek No JUNK in my email please
, ____|_/ragonsclaw ***@JUNKmindspring.com
, / / / Running United Devices "Cure For Cancer" Project 24/7 Have you helped? http://www.grid.org
Arny Krueger
2005-06-06 18:32:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Oberlander
I'd re-run it with two pieces of 12 gauge wire.
Good advice.
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Those 4 pieces of telephone wire aren't 14 gauge, btw.
The look like it, but in terms
Post by Joseph Oberlander
of capacity, they are closer to 20 gauge at best.
I believe that doubling the amount of copper per foot drops
you 3 wire gauges. The basic wire is 24 gauge so paralleling
two strands gets you 21 gauge, paralleling 4 gets you 18
gauge, and if you went for broke, paralleing all 8 gets you
to 15 gauge.
Joseph Oberlander
2005-06-07 08:02:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arny Krueger
Post by Joseph Oberlander
I'd re-run it with two pieces of 12 gauge wire.
Good advice.
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Those 4 pieces of telephone wire aren't 14 gauge, btw.
The look like it, but in terms
Post by Joseph Oberlander
of capacity, they are closer to 20 gauge at best.
I believe that doubling the amount of copper per foot drops
you 3 wire gauges. The basic wire is 24 gauge so paralleling
two strands gets you 21 gauge, paralleling 4 gets you 18
gauge, and if you went for broke, paralleing all 8 gets you
to 15 gauge.
Which brings up my second point in that sentance. 4 or 8
little wires with insulation added is larger than most
electrical wire that you are trying to emulate.
Arny Krueger
2005-06-06 18:35:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly?
If they were well-made splices, there would be no loss at
all. By well-made I mean soldered and taped. Or nicely done
with wirenuts or other proper solderless connector.
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Every time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.
Not in this life. If you do the splice well the loss is
absolutely positively negligable. If you do it badly enough
to have appreciable loss, then the splice will probably fall
the rest of the way apart by itself, pretty quickly.
cirejcon
2005-06-06 18:52:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Post by glw82664
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.
Huh??!?!?

Are you assuming he spliced it with Elmer's glue?

-jc
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.
Post by glw82664
I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using.
I'd re-run it with two pieces of 12 gauge wire. Those 4 pieces of
telephone wire aren't 14 gauge, btw. The look like it, but in terms
of capacity, they are closer to 20 gauge at best. This is a common
problem people make, in fact, with cat-5 and simmilar wires. It takes
a lot of them together to equal what one (by then, with the insulation
factored in) decent wire will do. Not that it isn't possible, but
most people find it cumbersome compared to using plain 12 or 14 gauge
stranded electrical wire.
Another option might be to get some Romex and run it under the house.
Another option might be to go with self-powered speakers. Then you'd
just be sending a preamp signal which should be no problem.
(Or just get a small amp for the second room - the best solution of
all, IMO)
Howard Ferstler
2005-06-06 22:30:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Post by glw82664
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.
Yoiks. I have done a lot of wire connecting over the years
and have never seen that kind of power cut due to splicing.

Howard Ferstler
Joe Sensor
2005-06-07 01:22:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly?
Why not?
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Every time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.
BULL!
Tomi Holger Engdahl
2005-06-07 07:57:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Post by glw82664
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly?
I would expect three splices to work properly when splices
are properly done. Soldering, reliable crimp type connections,
screw terminals and good quality connectors are proven ways
to splice pices of cables together.

If you have mande bad splices, then things can break there.
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Every time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.
Where did you get those numbers?
They do not hold true.
A properly done wire splices make very little loss.
It is avery small fraction of ohms in resistance,
typically in milliohms or test of milliohms range.
And the volume loss is definatly below fraction of decibel.
The effect of properly made splice is less than the effect
of few meters of speaker cable!

If the splice had 2-4 dB of loss, it would be a really bad
splice and heat up very much in the use, because it would
in this case loose around half of the power amplifier is
sending out! Your claim is just proven NOT to be true!
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver.
Those will not add up any noticeable load on the receiver!
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Splicing bad.
Spilcing is bad for system reliabity. More splices you have
in your system, the more propable is that some day one of them fails.
The other effects of properly done splices on audio speaker wires
are neglectable!
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Post by glw82664
I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using.
I'd re-run it with two pieces of 12 gauge wire. Those 4 pieces of
telephone wire aren't 14 gauge, btw. The look like it, but in terms
of capacity, they are closer to 20 gauge at best. This is a common
problem people make, in fact, with cat-5 and simmilar wires. It takes
a lot of them together to equal what one (by then, with the insulation
factored in) decent wire will do.
This is true.
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Not that it isn't possible, but
most people find it cumbersome compared to using plain 12 or 14 gauge
stranded electrical wire.
Another option might be to get some Romex and run it under the house.
Another option might be to go with self-powered speakers. Then you'd
just be sending a preamp signal which should be no problem.
(Or just get a small amp for the second room - the best solution of
all, IMO)
--
Tomi Engdahl (http://www.iki.fi/then/)
Take a look at my electronics web links and documents at
http://www.epanorama.net/
William Sommerwerck
2005-06-07 08:32:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.
Utter baloney. 2 to 4 dB per splice? You lose nothing. The resistance of a
proper solder joint is nearly zero. Where do you get this "information"?

This is typical of UseNet groups. Someone asks a question, no one gives the
right answer, and the discussion wanders off in all sorts of directions.

Okay. You want the "right" answer to the original question? In all
likelihood, at least one of the splices is shorted. The receiver is trying
to work into at least a partial short, which is why the protective relays
are activating.
Chas Gill
2005-06-07 09:41:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.
Utter baloney. 2 to 4 dB per splice? You lose nothing. The resistance of a
proper solder joint is nearly zero. Where do you get this "information"?
This is typical of UseNet groups. Someone asks a question, no one gives the
right answer, and the discussion wanders off in all sorts of directions.
Okay. You want the "right" answer to the original question? In all
likelihood, at least one of the splices is shorted. The receiver is trying
to work into at least a partial short, which is why the protective relays
are activating.
An afterthought - did not the OP say he was using phone cable - and
combining 3 pairs into one to reduce resistance? Pound to a penny he's
crossed a pair in a splice somewhere and created a short. My advice would
be to buzz the cables through to check this out.

Chas
Chas Gill
2005-06-07 09:41:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice. Three, plus
the connectors on the end... That's going to add up to a noticeable
load increase on the receiver. Splicing bad.
Utter baloney. 2 to 4 dB per splice? You lose nothing. The resistance of a
proper solder joint is nearly zero. Where do you get this "information"?
This is typical of UseNet groups. Someone asks a question, no one gives the
right answer, and the discussion wanders off in all sorts of directions.
Okay. You want the "right" answer to the original question? In all
likelihood, at least one of the splices is shorted. The receiver is trying
to work into at least a partial short, which is why the protective relays
are activating.
I tend to agree, without being on the spot.

Chas
Lorin David Schultz
2005-06-07 15:19:59 UTC
Permalink
The receiver is trying to work into at least a partial short
What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?
--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)
John O
2005-06-07 15:55:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorin David Schultz
The receiver is trying to work into at least a partial short
What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?
Almost zero ohms, but not quite. Like being in, but not
breaking....nevermind.

-John O
Arny Krueger
2005-06-07 16:19:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorin David Schultz
The receiver is trying to work into at least a partial
short
Post by Lorin David Schultz
What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?
...that, or partially pregnant. ;-)
William Sommerwerck
2005-06-07 23:34:41 UTC
Permalink
The receiver is trying to work into at least a partial short
What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?
As opposed to a "dead short."

A partial short is one whose resistance is rather lower than what the source
is comfortable with. But it's not "zero." That's a dead short.
jakdedert
2005-06-08 14:43:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
The receiver is trying to work into at least a partial short
What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?
As opposed to a "dead short."
Opposed to a 'dead short'...wouldn't that be a 'live short'? IOW, not so
shorted as to completely kill whatever it was connected to, but....

Actually, that started out as a tongue in cheek answer, but there's actually
some logic to it.
Post by William Sommerwerck
A partial short is one whose resistance is rather lower than what the
source is comfortable with. But it's not "zero." That's a dead short.
Also, could be a short which only occurs when the voltage gets high enough
to overcome the dielectric quality of whatever is keeping the conductors
apart; be it air, paper, dirt or whatever...also could be a short which only
shows up when the insulator becomes moist, as in corrosion or paper or
dirt....

jak
Steve Urbach
2005-06-08 05:05:29 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:19:59 GMT, "Lorin David Schultz"
Post by Lorin David Schultz
What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?
A single strand "cat wisker" bridged to the other wire in the pair.

, _
, | \ MKA: Steve Urbach
, | )erek No JUNK in my email please
, ____|_/ragonsclaw ***@JUNKmindspring.com
, / / / Running United Devices "Cure For Cancer" Project 24/7 Have you helped? http://www.grid.org
AZ Nomad
2005-06-08 05:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Urbach
On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 15:19:59 GMT, "Lorin David Schultz"
Post by Lorin David Schultz
What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?
A single strand "cat wisker" bridged to the other wire in the pair.
Interesting concept. I've been working with audio for 35 years and never seen
a single example of a "cat wisker" crossing through the insulation. Is this
something that's really been a problem for you?
ric
2005-06-08 05:50:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by AZ Nomad
Post by Steve Urbach
Post by Lorin David Schultz
What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?
A single strand "cat wisker" bridged to the other wire in the pair.
Interesting concept. I've been working with audio for 35 years and never seen
a single example of a "cat wisker" crossing through the insulation. Is this
something that's really been a problem for you?
Read the thread as to what the OP was doing.
Richard Crowley
2005-06-08 13:15:02 UTC
Permalink
"AZ Nomad" wrote ...
Post by AZ Nomad
Interesting concept. I've been working with audio for
35 years and never seen a single example of a "cat wisker"
crossing through the insulation. Is this something that's
really been a problem for you?
It is always a concern when terminating stranded wire,
especially in close quarters like inside connector shells.
And especially with really fine wire where the individual
strands are nearly invisible.
ric
2005-06-08 21:08:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Crowley
Post by AZ Nomad
Interesting concept. I've been working with audio for
35 years and never seen a single example of a "cat wisker"
crossing through the insulation. Is this something that's
really been a problem for you?
It is always a concern when terminating stranded wire,
especially in close quarters like inside connector shells.
And especially with really fine wire where the individual
strands are nearly invisible.
Is quite a problem when terminating stranded wire at a PCB hole,
especially if the hole is a tad too small.
Lorin David Schultz
2005-06-08 15:52:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Urbach
Post by Lorin David Schultz
What's a "partial short?" Is that like a partial virgin?
A single strand "cat wisker" bridged to the other wire in the pair.
That's a short, period. It's not "partial." You don't have to have the
entire bundle making contact to have a short.

William suggested that his interpretation of the difference between a
"partial" short and a "dead" short is resistance -- a partial short has
some, a dead short doesn't. So what's the threshold for the difference
between partial and dead? I guess it would depend on the circuit it's
in. Is any case of insufficient load resistance a "partial short?"
--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)
mc
2005-06-07 01:17:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Oberlander
Eek. Three splices and you expect it to work properly? Every
time you splice a wire you loose 2-4db per splice.
Huh? If every splice in a wire had a resistance of a few ohms, our houses
would burn down. Think about the number of splices between you and the
power generating plant.

A soldered splice has no more resistance than an unbroken wire. A good
tight solderless splice can also be very good.

If you are losing 2 to 4 dB per splice, adopt a different splicing
technique! Or are you thinking of VHF cables where there is an unavoidable
impedance mismatch? That doesn't apply at audio frequencies.
Ben Bradley
2005-06-06 18:10:00 UTC
Permalink
RAO removed, I suspect that's where Oberlander with "2 dB per
splice" and "load increase on the receiver" is posting from, at least
that's where my bias about where such statements would come from.

In rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.opinion, On 6
Post by glw82664
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem.
I suspect one of your splices is shorted, this causes excessive
current from the amplifier, and the protection circuitry cuts in,
turning off the output.
Post by glw82664
The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using.
Now that you mention that, this extra cable could give a
significant capacitive load to the amp, possibly causing it to
oscillate at ultrasonic frequencies, causing excess current, and the
protection circuitry cuts in.
Which speakers are playing? A, B, or both? Some receiver designs
put the speakers in series when both A and B are turned on, resulting
in a lower load to the amp, reducing the chance of damage.
Post by glw82664
Maybe
upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending the money I'm just
looking for ideas here. Thanks in advance.
Home Depot has a 100ft roll of 12 gauge for twenty-something
dollars, just buy it and cut it in half to get two speaker runs of 50
feet. Or if the distance is actually more than 50 feet, buy two rolls,
or even the jumbo 500 feet roll and save more per foot!

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley
Joe Kesselman
2005-06-06 23:57:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Bradley
I suspect one of your splices is shorted, this causes excessive
current from the amplifier, and the protection circuitry cuts in,
turning off the output.
Given the reported symptom, that's what I'd expect.
Post by Ben Bradley
Home Depot has a 100ft roll of 12 gauge for twenty-something
dollars, just buy it and cut it in half to get two speaker runs of 50
feet. Or if the distance is actually more than 50 feet, buy two rolls,
or even the jumbo 500 feet roll and save more per foot!
Or just buy however many feet you do need off their big roll.

There's nothing inherently wrong with a properly done splice. But wire's
so darned cheap that there's rarely any good reason to splice for
anything but the most temporary solutions.
Arny Krueger
2005-06-06 18:29:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by glw82664
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring.
I have an
Post by glw82664
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for
satellite
Post by glw82664
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine
having run
Post by glw82664
about 30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the
speakers.

Shouldn't be a problem.
Post by glw82664
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and
had to
Post by glw82664
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are
actually three
Post by glw82664
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now,
when I turn
Post by glw82664
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops
transmiting
Post by glw82664
the signal and starts clicking.
Odds are good that one or more of the splices is shorting
out.
Post by glw82664
I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem.
More likely - one of the the splices is shorting.
Post by glw82664
The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I
came in to for
Post by glw82664
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4
positive and 4
Post by glw82664
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge.
However, it might not be all copper.
Post by glw82664
I have checked,
re-checked, and re-checked again all the connections and
they are
Post by glw82664
correct so I presume the runs are simply too long for the
wire I am
Post by glw82664
using.
Frankly, a longer cable run should make the receiver less
sensitive to the speaker load.
Post by glw82664
Maybe upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending
the
Post by glw82664
money I'm just looking for ideas here.
Well, 12 guage cable is pretty cheap - under $0.50 a foot at
one of the home improvement centers for fine-stranded 12
gauge 2 conductor low voltage wire. I paid about $50 for 250
feet, list time I needed some.
Mike Rivers
2005-06-06 19:45:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by glw82664
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.
Adding an extra 20 feet of wire wouldn't cause that, but a short or
open at a splice might. Check your splices first. For a 50 foot run at
normal household volume, #16 or even #18 wire will work fine. Go to
Home Depot, buy 100 feet of #16 "zip" cord, cut it in half, and you'll
have decent speaker cables. Make sure you know which is right and
which is left, and identify the polarity so you'll hook + on the
amplifier to + on the speaker.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers (***@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
cirejcon
2005-06-06 20:18:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by glw82664
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge.
This doesn't sound right. I suspect you're comparing diameters
rather than area. Depending on the speaker power, even four
phone wires might be marginal. Check the current ratings
here:
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
Add the current ratings of the wire you're using, and you'll see
it's nowhere near 14 gauge.
Post by glw82664
I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using. Maybe
upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending the money I'm just
looking for ideas here. Thanks in advance.
As I said, your total wire gauge is probably marginal, but that
wouldn't
cause the effect you're seeing. As others have said, it's probably
a bad splice or a short, although you seem to imply that it's both
speakers
and that would be a really weird coincidence. Did you check with an
ohmmeter to see if there was any short between the wires.

Of course, don't discount the fact that you may have damaged something
else in the process. Try:
- switching which outputs go to your external speakers
- moving the speakers back inside and see if they still work
when they're close.

The only other thing I can think of is that you might have introduced
a left/right channel short somewhere in the wiring. This might
cause odd behavior as you increase the volume.

-jc
dizzy
2005-06-10 00:30:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by cirejcon
This doesn't sound right. I suspect you're comparing diameters
rather than area. Depending on the speaker power, even four
phone wires might be marginal. Check the current ratings
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
Add the current ratings of the wire you're using, and you'll see
it's nowhere near 14 gauge.
Right. A jump in 3 gauge sizes is approximately a doubling (a
halving) of the wire cross-sectional area, so four 20-gauge wires is
the same as one 14-gauge wire. However, the phone-wire that the OP is
using is probably 26 gauge, so he'd need sixteen in parallel to equal
a 14 gauge.
ric
2005-06-06 20:47:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by glw82664
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.
Bad splice? One strand shorting somewhere?

Two suggestions:

1) Rewire with a run of 12-14 gauge wire. No splices.
2) If your deck does *not* require audiophile quality audio, consider
wireless transmission to your speakers. More $$, but less hassle.
Howard Ferstler
2005-06-06 22:26:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by ric
Post by glw82664
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking.
Bad splice? One strand shorting somewhere?
1) Rewire with a run of 12-14 gauge wire. No splices.
2) If your deck does *not* require audiophile quality audio, consider
wireless transmission to your speakers. More $$, but less hassle.
Good points.

This man is probably clipping the signal as the receiver
tries to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require.

I suggest going for heavier wire, without all of those
splices. Places like Home Depot and Lowe's have 12 AWG
low-voltage wire for use with outdoor lighting systems that
is ideal for making long cable runs to speakers located as
yours are. The wire is fairly cheap and is available in 100
and 50 foot lengths.

Another option, since a good receiver should not behave as
he indicated (assuming that the splices are good), is to get
a more robust receiver, but still change to that
continuous-length wire.

Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
2005-06-06 22:32:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by glw82664
I'm far from an audiophile and need help with some wiring. I have an
old pioneer receiver that has an A/B switch. I use B for satellite
speakers on my deck. Until recently, they worked fine having run about
30 feet of wire from where the receiver sits to the speakers.
Yesterday, I moved the receiver to a room farther away and had to
splice in about an extra 20 feet of wire. There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem. The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge. I have checked, re-checked,
and re-checked again all the connections and they are correct so I
presume the runs are simply too long for the wire I am using. Maybe
upping to 12 gauge will help, but before spending the money I'm just
looking for ideas here. Thanks in advance.
You are possibly clipping the signal as the receiver tries
to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require. It is also possible that the configuration of the
wire is causing some capacitive artifacts. A splice may also
be shorting together, although if that were happening you
would not be getting sound even at low levels, let alone at
moderate levels.

I suggest going for heavier wire, without all of those
potentially problem causing splices. Places like Home Depot
and Lowe's have 12 AWG low-voltage wire for use with outdoor
lighting systems that is ideal for making long cable runs to
speakers located as yours are, especially outdoors. The wire
is fairly cheap and is available in 100 and 50 foot lengths.

Howard Ferstler
Trevor Wilson
2005-06-07 00:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Ferstler
You are possibly clipping the signal as the receiver tries
to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require.
**Nonsense. Utter, banal nonsense. Read what the poster typed. He said:
---
"There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking."
---

What is happening is now obvious. The key words are: "moderate" and
"splices".

It is also possible that the configuration of the
Post by Howard Ferstler
wire is causing some capacitive artifacts.
**Possible, but extremely unlikely.

A splice may also
Post by Howard Ferstler
be shorting together, although if that were happening you
would not be getting sound even at low levels, let alone at
moderate levels.
**Wrong! The protection systems in many amps rely on the current flow
through the output devices. At low levels, little current will flow and the
amp will not shut down.
Post by Howard Ferstler
I suggest going for heavier wire, without all of those
potentially problem causing splices. Places like Home Depot
and Lowe's have 12 AWG low-voltage wire for use with outdoor
lighting systems that is ideal for making long cable runs to
speakers located as yours are, especially outdoors. The wire
is fairly cheap and is available in 100 and 50 foot lengths.
**On that we agree. CONTIGUOUS lengths of cable will probably solve the
problem.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Joe Sensor
2005-06-07 01:19:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trevor Wilson
**On that we agree. CONTIGUOUS lengths of cable will probably solve the
problem.
I would tend to agree. But the problem isn't with splices, in general.
The problem here is likely how the "splices" were made. I have never had
a problem with splices. A speaker cable with 50 "proper" splices would
make no difference.
Howard Ferstler
2005-06-09 20:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trevor Wilson
Post by Howard Ferstler
You are possibly clipping the signal as the receiver tries
to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require.
---
"There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking."
---
What is happening is now obvious. The key words are: "moderate" and
"splices".
Generally, if there is a direct short between the leads the
ENTIRE signal will pass through that short, even at the very
lowest levels. Consequently, he would have problems at all
levels, even low ones, and the speakers would remain silent,
period.

But you have a point. If he were cranking things all the way
up he might clip things, but a moderate turn should not clip
the amp. My guess is that he has some weird shorts possibly
between channels.
Post by Trevor Wilson
It is also possible that the configuration of the
Post by Howard Ferstler
wire is causing some capacitive artifacts.
**Possible, but extremely unlikely.
Check all possibilities, I say.
Post by Trevor Wilson
A splice may also
Post by Howard Ferstler
be shorting together, although if that were happening you
would not be getting sound even at low levels, let alone at
moderate levels.
**Wrong! The protection systems in many amps rely on the current flow
through the output devices. At low levels, little current will flow and the
amp will not shut down.
Baloney. While the amp might not shut down, he certainly
would not be getting sound from his speakers, even at low
levels. A short would shunt virtually all the juice through
the shorted sections, and the speakers would make no sound
at all, because no current would be flowing through them.
Post by Trevor Wilson
Post by Howard Ferstler
I suggest going for heavier wire, without all of those
potentially problem causing splices. Places like Home Depot
and Lowe's have 12 AWG low-voltage wire for use with outdoor
lighting systems that is ideal for making long cable runs to
speakers located as yours are, especially outdoors. The wire
is fairly cheap and is available in 100 and 50 foot lengths.
**On that we agree. CONTIGUOUS lengths of cable will probably solve the
problem.
Yep.

Howard Ferstler
Trevor Wilson
2005-06-09 21:12:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Trevor Wilson
Post by Howard Ferstler
You are possibly clipping the signal as the receiver tries
to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require.
---
"There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking."
---
What is happening is now obvious. The key words are: "moderate" and
"splices".
Generally, if there is a direct short between the leads the
ENTIRE signal will pass through that short, even at the very
lowest levels. Consequently, he would have problems at all
levels, even low ones, and the speakers would remain silent,
period.
**Wrong! You have neglected to allow for cable resistance. ALL wire has some
resistance. Long wires have more resistance.
Post by Howard Ferstler
But you have a point. If he were cranking things all the way
up he might clip things, but a moderate turn should not clip
the amp. My guess is that he has some weird shorts possibly
between channels.
**That is what I and other posters have suggested.
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Trevor Wilson
It is also possible that the configuration of the
Post by Howard Ferstler
wire is causing some capacitive artifacts.
**Possible, but extremely unlikely.
Check all possibilities, I say.
**And how is the average user going to check capacitance?
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Trevor Wilson
A splice may also
Post by Howard Ferstler
be shorting together, although if that were happening you
would not be getting sound even at low levels, let alone at
moderate levels.
**Wrong! The protection systems in many amps rely on the current flow
through the output devices. At low levels, little current will flow and the
amp will not shut down.
Baloney.
**After you spend several years studying electronics and after you spend
most of your lifetime servicing domestic audio equipment, you will be
qualified to argue with me. At this point you are speaking from a position
of extreme ignorance. What I wrote is 100% on the money. I have seen
it/analysed it/measured it many times.


While the amp might not shut down, he certainly
Post by Howard Ferstler
would not be getting sound from his speakers, even at low
levels.
**That would depend on the type of short. A short on one channel only, would
allow the other channel/s to work.

A short would shunt virtually all the juice through
Post by Howard Ferstler
the shorted sections, and the speakers would make no sound
at all, because no current would be flowing through them.
**Yep. Unless it was a high resistnace short. Say >0.5 Ohms. And yes, I've
seen that happen many times.
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Trevor Wilson
Post by Howard Ferstler
I suggest going for heavier wire, without all of those
potentially problem causing splices. Places like Home Depot
and Lowe's have 12 AWG low-voltage wire for use with outdoor
lighting systems that is ideal for making long cable runs to
speakers located as yours are, especially outdoors. The wire
is fairly cheap and is available in 100 and 50 foot lengths.
**On that we agree. CONTIGUOUS lengths of cable will probably solve the
problem.
Yep.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Howard Ferstler
2005-06-12 22:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trevor Wilson
Post by Howard Ferstler
Generally, if there is a direct short between the leads the
ENTIRE signal will pass through that short, even at the very
lowest levels. Consequently, he would have problems at all
levels, even low ones, and the speakers would remain silent,
period.
**Wrong! You have neglected to allow for cable resistance. ALL wire has some
resistance. Long wires have more resistance.
A short is a short. If a speaker is in parallel with a short
just about all the signal (99.99%, or more) will pass
through the short and not through the speaker. The amp will
act up and while this happens the speaker will probably be
silent. It has to be silent, because no significant amount
of juice is flowing through it.
Post by Trevor Wilson
Post by Howard Ferstler
But you have a point. If he were cranking things all the way
up he might clip things, but a moderate turn should not clip
the amp. My guess is that he has some weird shorts possibly
between channels.
**That is what I and other posters have suggested.
The guy just needs to use a simple wire hookup and see what
transpires. Then he can dismiss wire artifacts if the
problem persists and move on to finding another solution.
Post by Trevor Wilson
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Howard Ferstler
A splice may also
Post by Howard Ferstler
be shorting together, although if that were happening you
would not be getting sound even at low levels, let alone at
moderate levels.
**Wrong! The protection systems in many amps rely on the current flow
through the output devices. At low levels, little current will flow and the
amp will not shut down.
The level would have to be very, very low, and under this
condition there would be no sound coming from the speaker at
all. Virtually all the electricity would be flowing through
the short. He said that at low levels the speakers were
emitting signals.
Post by Trevor Wilson
**After you spend several years studying electronics and after you spend
most of your lifetime servicing domestic audio equipment, you will be
qualified to argue with me.
Give me a break, you pompous windbag.
Post by Trevor Wilson
While the amp might not shut down, he certainly
Post by Howard Ferstler
would not be getting sound from his speakers, even at low
levels.
**That would depend on the type of short. A short on one channel only, would
allow the other channel/s to work.
He never said anything about this. He was talking about the
sound of the offending channel.
Post by Trevor Wilson
A short would shunt virtually all the juice through
Post by Howard Ferstler
the shorted sections, and the speakers would make no sound
at all, because no current would be flowing through them.
**Yep. Unless it was a high resistnace short. Say >0.5 Ohms. And yes, I've
seen that happen many times.
High resistance short? What the heck is that? If it has
resistance then it is not a short. Two wires making contact
are going to generate a short.

Howard Ferstler
Trevor Wilson
2005-06-13 05:15:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Trevor Wilson
Post by Howard Ferstler
Generally, if there is a direct short between the leads the
ENTIRE signal will pass through that short, even at the very
lowest levels. Consequently, he would have problems at all
levels, even low ones, and the speakers would remain silent,
period.
**Wrong! You have neglected to allow for cable resistance. ALL wire has some
resistance. Long wires have more resistance.
A short is a short.
**Not always. Hardly ever, in fact.

If a speaker is in parallel with a short
Post by Howard Ferstler
just about all the signal (99.99%, or more) will pass
through the short and not through the speaker.
**99.99%? That would depend on a number of factors:
* The ACTUAL resistance of the S/C.
* The output resistance of the source.

Personally, I would never state, categorically, that 99.99% of the signal
was flowing through any given S/C. Particularly without the benefit of
actually seeing/measuring that said S/C.

The amp will
Post by Howard Ferstler
act up and while this happens the speaker will probably be
silent. It has to be silent, because no significant amount
of juice is flowing through it.
**You've seen the actual problem the poster is referring to? Or are you now
engaged in wild speculation?
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Trevor Wilson
Post by Howard Ferstler
But you have a point. If he were cranking things all the way
up he might clip things, but a moderate turn should not clip
the amp. My guess is that he has some weird shorts possibly
between channels.
**That is what I and other posters have suggested.
The guy just needs to use a simple wire hookup and see what
transpires. Then he can dismiss wire artifacts if the
problem persists and move on to finding another solution.
**Indeed.
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Trevor Wilson
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Howard Ferstler
A splice may also
Post by Howard Ferstler
be shorting together, although if that were happening you
would not be getting sound even at low levels, let alone at
moderate levels.
**Wrong! The protection systems in many amps rely on the current flow
through the output devices. At low levels, little current will flow
and
the
amp will not shut down.
The level would have to be very, very low, and under this
condition there would be no sound coming from the speaker at
all.
**WRONG! (again). Depending on the type of protection system employed, the
loop resistance could be in the order of (say) 1 Ohm or more. At that level,
several Volts of output signal may be required to trip the protection relay
(if fitted) or whatever is used to shut down the amp. Again, I have seen
precisely this condition many times.

Virtually all the electricity would be flowing through
Post by Howard Ferstler
the short. He said that at low levels the speakers were
emitting signals.
**Not quite. Read what he wrote again.
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Trevor Wilson
**After you spend several years studying electronics and after you spend
most of your lifetime servicing domestic audio equipment, you will be
qualified to argue with me.
Give me a break, you pompous windbag.
**_I_ am a pompus windbag? Tell me YOUR qualifications as they pertain to
circuit analysis. Tell me what you understand by Thevenin's Theorem. How
long did you spend studying it? I spent quite some time doing just that.
Doing so allows me to point out just how utterly wrong you are. If being
correct makes me a pompus windbag, then so be it.
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Trevor Wilson
While the amp might not shut down, he certainly
Post by Howard Ferstler
would not be getting sound from his speakers, even at low
levels.
**That would depend on the type of short. A short on one channel only, would
allow the other channel/s to work.
He never said anything about this. He was talking about the
sound of the offending channel.
**Was he? He wasn't overly clear in his initial post on this matter.
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Trevor Wilson
A short would shunt virtually all the juice through
Post by Howard Ferstler
the shorted sections, and the speakers would make no sound
at all, because no current would be flowing through them.
**Yep. Unless it was a high resistnace short. Say >0.5 Ohms. And yes, I've
seen that happen many times.
High resistance short?
**Yes.
Post by Howard Ferstler
What the heck is that?
**Exactly what it is.

If it has
Post by Howard Ferstler
resistance then it is not a short.
**Then there is, by your definition, no such thing as a short circuit.
Everything has resistance.

Two wires making contact
Post by Howard Ferstler
are going to generate a short.
**Not a perfect short circuit. There is no such thing.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
mc
2005-06-13 05:28:20 UTC
Permalink
It's odd that there's been so much dispute here... Shorts with appreciably
nonzero resistance (a few ohms) are common. They occur whenever the shorted
wires are not firmly pressed together, just barely making contact, and
there's a layer of oxidation or some kind of resistive material on the
surface.

They also vary with vibration and even with voltage.
Trevor Wilson
2005-06-15 22:14:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by mc
It's odd that there's been so much dispute here...
**The only dispute is between a person formally educated in the area of
electronics and electrical theory, backed up by more than 30 years of
practical experience and a librarian.

Shorts with appreciably
Post by mc
nonzero resistance (a few ohms) are common.
**VERY common.

They occur whenever the shorted
Post by mc
wires are not firmly pressed together, just barely making contact, and
there's a layer of oxidation or some kind of resistive material on the
surface.
They also vary with vibration and even with voltage.
**And temperature, weather conditions and a host of other factors.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Steve Urbach
2005-06-13 15:11:58 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 18:20:13 -0400, Howard Ferstler
Post by Howard Ferstler
A short is a short.
The derivative of a "Shortened Circuit".

A un-desired connection that allows current to take a -shortened- path
(back to the source). See Kirkoffs law about sum of the currents....

No where is there a defined resistance or percentage of current, only
that *some* current took a un-desired short cut :O

That, my friends, is why we have "shorts" in all sizes and flavors.
, _
, | \ MKA: Steve Urbach
, | )erek No JUNK in my email please
, ____|_/ragonsclaw ***@JUNKmindspring.com
, / / / Running United Devices "Cure For Cancer" Project 24/7 Have you helped? http://www.grid.org
ric
2005-06-13 19:46:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Trevor Wilson
**Wrong! You have neglected to allow for cable resistance. ALL wire has some
resistance. Long wires have more resistance.
A short is a short. If a speaker is in parallel with a short
just about all the signal (99.99%, or more) will pass
through the short and not through the speaker. The amp will
act up and while this happens the speaker will probably be
silent. It has to be silent, because no significant amount
of juice is flowing through it.
A single strand of a multi-strand cable "shorting" to the opposite
polarity can either be a low impedance or a real short, depending
on its coupling to the rest of the cable. It *can* appear as a low
impedance load on the amplifier, resulting in the OP's symptoms.
Or it *can* appear as a direct short, causing problems immediately.
I have experienced both scenarios.
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Trevor Wilson
Post by Howard Ferstler
But you have a point. If he were cranking things all the way
up he might clip things, but a moderate turn should not clip
the amp. My guess is that he has some weird shorts possibly
between channels.
**That is what I and other posters have suggested.
The guy just needs to use a simple wire hookup and see what
transpires. Then he can dismiss wire artifacts if the
problem persists and move on to finding another solution.
Post by Trevor Wilson
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Howard Ferstler
A splice may also
Post by Howard Ferstler
be shorting together, although if that were happening you
would not be getting sound even at low levels, let alone at
moderate levels.
**Wrong! The protection systems in many amps rely on the current flow
through the output devices. At low levels, little current will flow and the
amp will not shut down.
The level would have to be very, very low, and under this
condition there would be no sound coming from the speaker at
all. Virtually all the electricity would be flowing through
the short. He said that at low levels the speakers were
emitting signals.
Post by Trevor Wilson
**After you spend several years studying electronics and after you spend
most of your lifetime servicing domestic audio equipment, you will be
qualified to argue with me.
Give me a break, you pompous windbag.
Post by Trevor Wilson
While the amp might not shut down, he certainly
Post by Howard Ferstler
would not be getting sound from his speakers, even at low
levels.
**That would depend on the type of short. A short on one channel only, would
allow the other channel/s to work.
He never said anything about this. He was talking about the
sound of the offending channel.
Post by Trevor Wilson
A short would shunt virtually all the juice through
Post by Howard Ferstler
the shorted sections, and the speakers would make no sound
at all, because no current would be flowing through them.
**Yep. Unless it was a high resistnace short. Say >0.5 Ohms. And yes, I've
seen that happen many times.
High resistance short? What the heck is that? If it has
resistance then it is not a short. Two wires making contact
are going to generate a short.
Howard Ferstler
Howard Ferstler
2005-06-16 01:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by ric
Post by Howard Ferstler
A short is a short. If a speaker is in parallel with a short
just about all the signal (99.99%, or more) will pass
through the short and not through the speaker. The amp will
act up and while this happens the speaker will probably be
silent. It has to be silent, because no significant amount
of juice is flowing through it.
A single strand of a multi-strand cable "shorting" to the opposite
polarity can either be a low impedance or a real short, depending
on its coupling to the rest of the cable. It *can* appear as a low
impedance load on the amplifier, resulting in the OP's symptoms.
Or it *can* appear as a direct short, causing problems immediately.
I have experienced both scenarios.
I got the impression from the guy's original post that the
effect was the same in both channels. It seems preposterous
to assume that identical partial shorts of the kind you
indicated would happen the same way in both channels.

Howard Ferstler
Trevor Wilson
2005-06-16 01:51:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by ric
Post by Howard Ferstler
A short is a short. If a speaker is in parallel with a short
just about all the signal (99.99%, or more) will pass
through the short and not through the speaker. The amp will
act up and while this happens the speaker will probably be
silent. It has to be silent, because no significant amount
of juice is flowing through it.
A single strand of a multi-strand cable "shorting" to the opposite
polarity can either be a low impedance or a real short, depending
on its coupling to the rest of the cable. It *can* appear as a low
impedance load on the amplifier, resulting in the OP's symptoms.
Or it *can* appear as a direct short, causing problems immediately.
I have experienced both scenarios.
I got the impression from the guy's original post that the
effect was the same in both channels. It seems preposterous
to assume that identical partial shorts of the kind you
indicated would happen the same way in both channels.
**It's actually far more preposterous to argue with people who ACTUALLY know
what they're talking about, when it comes to electrical theory and
amplifiers, speakers and speaker cables in the real world. You need to read
the original post, BEFORE arguing with people.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Howard Ferstler
2005-06-16 01:52:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trevor Wilson
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by ric
Post by Howard Ferstler
A short is a short. If a speaker is in parallel with a short
just about all the signal (99.99%, or more) will pass
through the short and not through the speaker. The amp will
act up and while this happens the speaker will probably be
silent. It has to be silent, because no significant amount
of juice is flowing through it.
A single strand of a multi-strand cable "shorting" to the opposite
polarity can either be a low impedance or a real short, depending
on its coupling to the rest of the cable. It *can* appear as a low
impedance load on the amplifier, resulting in the OP's symptoms.
Or it *can* appear as a direct short, causing problems immediately.
I have experienced both scenarios.
I got the impression from the guy's original post that the
effect was the same in both channels. It seems preposterous
to assume that identical partial shorts of the kind you
indicated would happen the same way in both channels.
**It's actually far more preposterous to argue with people who ACTUALLY know
what they're talking about,
Like you, tweako?

I remember some time ago when you were going to send me a
very special "sounds better than anything else" amp to
review. That went nowhere, probably because you realized
that I would DBT the thing and say that it sounded just like
any other good amp.

Howard Ferstler
Trevor Wilson
2005-06-16 02:15:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Trevor Wilson
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by ric
Post by Howard Ferstler
A short is a short. If a speaker is in parallel with a short
just about all the signal (99.99%, or more) will pass
through the short and not through the speaker. The amp will
act up and while this happens the speaker will probably be
silent. It has to be silent, because no significant amount
of juice is flowing through it.
A single strand of a multi-strand cable "shorting" to the opposite
polarity can either be a low impedance or a real short, depending
on its coupling to the rest of the cable. It *can* appear as a low
impedance load on the amplifier, resulting in the OP's symptoms.
Or it *can* appear as a direct short, causing problems immediately.
I have experienced both scenarios.
I got the impression from the guy's original post that the
effect was the same in both channels. It seems preposterous
to assume that identical partial shorts of the kind you
indicated would happen the same way in both channels.
**It's actually far more preposterous to argue with people who ACTUALLY know
what they're talking about,
Like you, tweako?
**Indeed. I know considerably more than you about electrical theory,
electronics and what happens to amplifiers when you connect them to low
impedance loads.
Post by Howard Ferstler
I remember some time ago when you were going to send me a
very special "sounds better than anything else" amp to
review. That went nowhere, probably because you realized
that I would DBT the thing and say that it sounded just like
any other good amp.
**You wrote me (on RAO, I recall) back and said (to paraphrase):

"I wouldn't test your amplifier, if it was the last amplifier on the
planet." I'll try to find your exact quote.

At that point, I decided that you were a waste of time. A waste of time with
no ability to approach a product with an open mind.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
ric
2005-06-16 04:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by ric
A single strand of a multi-strand cable "shorting" to the opposite
polarity can either be a low impedance or a real short, depending
on its coupling to the rest of the cable. It *can* appear as a low
impedance load on the amplifier, resulting in the OP's symptoms.
Or it *can* appear as a direct short, causing problems immediately.
I have experienced both scenarios.
I got the impression from the guy's original post that the
effect was the same in both channels. It seems preposterous
to assume that identical partial shorts of the kind you
indicated would happen the same way in both channels.
Indeed, but would not an activated protection circuit cause *both*
channels to cut out, even though the "short" only occurred on one?
Ben Bradley
2005-06-10 04:36:29 UTC
Permalink
In rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.opinion, On
Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:51:40 -0400, Howard Ferstler
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Trevor Wilson
Post by Howard Ferstler
You are possibly clipping the signal as the receiver tries
to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require.
---
"There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking."
---
What is happening is now obvious. The key words are: "moderate" and
"splices".
Generally, if there is a direct short between the leads the
ENTIRE signal will pass through that short, even at the very
lowest levels.
A thin wire strand may have 0.1 ohm resistance to an amplifier with
0.1 ohm output impedance (this would be a damping factor of 80 into an
8-ohm speaker, a reasonably good value - well, maybe an excellent
value for a consumer amplifier), you'll get a halving of voltage to
the speaker, or a 3 dB drop in volume, certainly noticable, but the
speaker signal will not have disappeared at lower volume. When the
volume control is turned up, the signal WILL disappear (either the
protection circuitry cuts in, or...).
Post by Howard Ferstler
Consequently, he would have problems at all
levels, even low ones, and the speakers would remain silent,
period.
...
Howard Ferstler
-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley
harrogate2
2005-06-10 07:07:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Bradley
In rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.opinion, On
Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:51:40 -0400, Howard Ferstler
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Trevor Wilson
Post by Howard Ferstler
You are possibly clipping the signal as the receiver tries
to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require.
---
"There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops
transmiting
Post by Ben Bradley
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Trevor Wilson
the signal and starts clicking."
---
What is happening is now obvious. The key words are: "moderate" and
"splices".
Generally, if there is a direct short between the leads the
ENTIRE signal will pass through that short, even at the very
lowest levels.
A thin wire strand may have 0.1 ohm resistance to an amplifier with
0.1 ohm output impedance (this would be a damping factor of 80 into an
8-ohm speaker, a reasonably good value - well, maybe an excellent
value for a consumer amplifier), you'll get a halving of voltage to
the speaker, or a 3 dB drop in volume, certainly noticable, but the
speaker signal will not have disappeared at lower volume. When the
volume control is turned up, the signal WILL disappear (either the
protection circuitry cuts in, or...).
Yet another one that quotes terminology that he/she doesn't
understand.

A 3dB loss is a halving of power, but it takes a 6dB drop to halve the
voltage.

Having said that the rest of it doesn't make sense either so I don't
know why I have bothered to contribute!


--
Woody

harrogate2 at ntlworld dot com
William Sommerwerck
2005-06-10 11:30:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Bradley
A thin wire strand may have 0.1 ohm resistance to an amplifier with
0.1 ohm output impedance (this would be a damping factor of 80 into an
8-ohm speaker, a reasonably good value - well, maybe an excellent
value for a consumer amplifier), you'll get a halving of voltage to
the speaker, or a 3 dB drop in volume, certainly noticable, but the
speaker signal will not have disappeared at lower volume. When the
volume control is turned up, the signal WILL disappear (either the
protection circuitry cuts in, or...).
Just because an amplifier has a source impedance of 0.1 ohm, doesn't mean it
can drive a 0.1 ohm load.
mc
2005-06-10 05:14:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Bradley
A thin wire strand may have 0.1 ohm resistance to an amplifier with
0.1 ohm output impedance (this would be a damping factor of 80 into an
8-ohm speaker, a reasonably good value - well, maybe an excellent
value for a consumer amplifier), you'll get a halving of voltage to
the speaker, or a 3 dB drop in volume, certainly noticable,
Er, no...

Suppose the amplifier is delivering 1.0 V rms at its output, and its output
impedance is 0.1 ohm. And the speaker impedance is 8 ohms. In between is a
wire...

The amplifier output impedance, the wire, and the speaker form a voltage
divider. The speaker receives

8 / (8 + 0.1) = 0.9877 V rms.

Now suppose the wire is 0.1 ohm as in your example. Then the speaker
receives

8 / (8 + 0.1 + 0.1) = 0.9756 V rms.

The difference in dB = 20 log10 (0.9877 / 0.9756) = 0.107 dB.

To cut the speaker voltage in half, the wire would have to have a resistance
of 8.1 ohms. To cut the speaker power in half (resulting in a 3 dB loss),
the wire would have to have a resistance of 5.73 ohms (because, given a
constant resistance, power is proportional to the square of voltage).

An 0.1-ohm wire would cut the damping factor in half, but that's not at all
like cutting the loudness in half. I don't know enough about speakers to
know if the difference between a damping factor of 80 and 40 would be
audible.
Howard Ferstler
2005-06-12 22:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Bradley
In rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.opinion, On
Thu, 09 Jun 2005 16:51:40 -0400, Howard Ferstler
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by Trevor Wilson
Post by Howard Ferstler
You are possibly clipping the signal as the receiver tries
to supply enough voltage to get the amplifier gain you
require.
---
"There are actually three
splices in each wire now due to obstacles and such. Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking."
---
What is happening is now obvious. The key words are: "moderate" and
"splices".
Generally, if there is a direct short between the leads the
ENTIRE signal will pass through that short, even at the very
lowest levels.
A thin wire strand may have 0.1 ohm resistance to an amplifier with
0.1 ohm output impedance (this would be a damping factor of 80 into an
8-ohm speaker, a reasonably good value - well, maybe an excellent
value for a consumer amplifier), you'll get a halving of voltage to
the speaker, or a 3 dB drop in volume, certainly noticable, but the
speaker signal will not have disappeared at lower volume. When the
volume control is turned up, the signal WILL disappear (either the
protection circuitry cuts in, or...).
This is plausible. However......

A short of this kind (part of a frayed wire miking contact
would be the only way I could see it happening( would change
every time he jostled the wire. Did this guy have the
problem on both channels? Seems unlikely that both would
have identical skinny-wire shorts.

Howard Ferstler
mc
2005-06-13 01:09:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Bradley
A thin wire strand may have 0.1 ohm resistance to an amplifier with
0.1 ohm output impedance (this would be a damping factor of 80 into an
8-ohm speaker, a reasonably good value - well, maybe an excellent
value for a consumer amplifier), you'll get a halving of voltage to
the speaker, or a 3 dB drop in volume, certainly noticable, but the
speaker signal will not have disappeared at lower volume. When the
volume control is turned up, the signal WILL disappear (either the
protection circuitry cuts in, or...).
I just realized that the original poster was talking about a 0.1-ohm short
(i.e., a short through a thin strand with appreciable resistance), not a
0.1-ohm series resistance in the wire. So the mathematical analysis I
posted was not to the point.

However, the amplifier would have *other* serious problems if it were
working into a total load of 0.2 ohm! I think this, too, is what he had in
mind (inability to deliver high volume).
Howard Ferstler
2005-06-16 01:41:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by mc
Post by Ben Bradley
A thin wire strand may have 0.1 ohm resistance to an amplifier with
0.1 ohm output impedance (this would be a damping factor of 80 into an
8-ohm speaker, a reasonably good value - well, maybe an excellent
value for a consumer amplifier), you'll get a halving of voltage to
the speaker, or a 3 dB drop in volume, certainly noticable, but the
speaker signal will not have disappeared at lower volume. When the
volume control is turned up, the signal WILL disappear (either the
protection circuitry cuts in, or...).
I just realized that the original poster was talking about a 0.1-ohm short
(i.e., a short through a thin strand with appreciable resistance), not a
0.1-ohm series resistance in the wire. So the mathematical analysis I
posted was not to the point.
However, the amplifier would have *other* serious problems if it were
working into a total load of 0.2 ohm! I think this, too, is what he had in
mind (inability to deliver high volume).
It would have to be identical with both channels, if what I
read of his original post is correct. While we might get a
partial short in one channel, the chance of an identical
partial short in the other channel is limited, to say the
least.

Howard Ferstler
d***@cartchunk.org
2005-06-16 02:44:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Ferstler
Post by mc
However, the amplifier would have *other* serious problems if it were
working into a total load of 0.2 ohm! I think this, too, is what he had in
mind (inability to deliver high volume).
It would have to be identical with both channels, if what I
read of his original post is correct. While we might get a
partial short in one channel, the chance of an identical
partial short in the other channel is limited, to say the
least.
No it is not. Consider if the short results in the power supply
going into current limiting, for example. Both channels would be
heavily affected. Or consider a protection circuit that yanks the
supply rail down to a level that prevent damage.

Any number of mechanisms that, quite apparently, you haven't
even thought of could easily cause the effects observed.

Please, Howard, stick to what you know and stay out of trouble.
George M. Middius
2005-06-16 03:12:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@cartchunk.org
Please, Howard, stick to what you know and stay out of trouble.
So you're telling him to shut up and sit in the corner?
Arny Krueger
2005-06-16 12:27:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by George M. Middius
Post by d***@cartchunk.org
Please, Howard, stick to what you know and stay out of
trouble.
Post by George M. Middius
So you're telling him to shut up and sit in the corner?
Middius, telling you to shut up and sit in the corner never
works, so why would you expect it to work with Howard? Oh, I
get it, this is consistent with your policy of unending
hypocrisy.

ric
2005-06-16 04:44:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Ferstler
It would have to be identical with both channels, if what I
read of his original post is correct. While we might get a
partial short in one channel, the chance of an identical
partial short in the other channel is limited, to say the
least.
Again, would not a fault on one channel cause the protection circuit
to cut in on both channels?
Trevor Wilson
2005-06-16 09:51:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by ric
Post by Howard Ferstler
It would have to be identical with both channels, if what I
read of his original post is correct. While we might get a
partial short in one channel, the chance of an identical
partial short in the other channel is limited, to say the
least.
Again, would not a fault on one channel cause the protection circuit
to cut in on both channels?
**It depends on how the amplifier is configured. There would be literally
several dozen, quite different systems in use to protect amplifiers. Some
amplifiers use more than one. It is impossible to know, without measuring
the actual product, or at least examining the schematic diagrams. However,
to answer your question: Yes, it is possible.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
2005-06-16 10:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by ric
Post by Howard Ferstler
It would have to be identical with both channels, if what I
read of his original post is correct. While we might get a
partial short in one channel, the chance of an identical
partial short in the other channel is limited, to say the
least.
Again, would not a fault on one channel cause the protection circuit
to cut in on both channels?
**There's little point in asking Mr Ferstler. He doesn't know.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
mc
2005-06-06 14:30:33 UTC
Permalink
Check it with an ohmmeter. You may not actually have a good connection.
o***@hotmail.com
2005-06-07 00:21:33 UTC
Permalink
Methinks legs are being pulled here??
Bg
dizzy
2005-06-10 00:34:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by glw82664
Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem.
You must have a short or an "almost short" that arcs-over at higher
voltages. Your receiver will never complain about having too much
resistance to drive, only too little. The only drawback to having
excessive resistance in the cable is inefficiency (wasting power in
the wire).
Richard Crowley
2005-06-10 02:13:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by dizzy
Post by glw82664
Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem.
You must have a short or an "almost short" that arcs-over at higher
voltages.
Where do you live that typical speaker voltages can "arc-over"
in an atmosphere that supports human life?

If you are posting from an alternative universe, my apologies.
We have had a rash of cross-postings from other worlds lately.
Ben Bradley
2005-06-10 04:38:36 UTC
Permalink
In rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.opinion, On
Post by Richard Crowley
Post by dizzy
...
You must have a short or an "almost short" that arcs-over at higher
voltages.
Where do you live that typical speaker voltages can "arc-over"
in an atmosphere that supports human life?
If you are posting from an alternative universe, my apologies.
We have had a rash of cross-postings from other worlds lately.
FWIW, I've noticed that on all the newsgroups I read, not just the
audio ones.

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley
Joe Sensor
2005-06-10 15:44:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Crowley
Post by dizzy
Post by glw82664
Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem.
You must have a short or an "almost short" that arcs-over at higher
voltages.
Where do you live that typical speaker voltages can "arc-over"
in an atmosphere that supports human life?
If you are posting from an alternative universe, my apologies.
We have had a rash of cross-postings from other worlds lately.
Didn't you just "plonk" him two minutes earlier?
ric
2005-06-10 20:29:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Sensor
Post by Richard Crowley
Where do you live that typical speaker voltages can "arc-over"
in an atmosphere that supports human life?
If you are posting from an alternative universe, my apologies.
We have had a rash of cross-postings from other worlds lately.
Didn't you just "plonk" him two minutes earlier?
<g>

A ceremonial "plonk" is rarely ever an indication of kill file usage.
Those of us who actually *use* newsgroup filters don't feel the need
to announce such usage with a "plonk."
Richard Crowley
2005-06-10 21:53:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by ric
Post by Joe Sensor
Post by Richard Crowley
Where do you live that typical speaker voltages can "arc-over"
in an atmosphere that supports human life?
If you are posting from an alternative universe, my apologies.
We have had a rash of cross-postings from other worlds lately.
Didn't you just "plonk" him two minutes earlier?
<g>
A ceremonial "plonk" is rarely ever an indication of kill file usage.
Those of us who actually *use* newsgroup filters don't feel the need
to announce such usage with a "plonk."
Furthermore, news articles don't necessarily appear to all of us in the
same order.
ric
2005-06-11 05:26:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Crowley
Post by ric
Post by Joe Sensor
Didn't you just "plonk" him two minutes earlier?
<g>
A ceremonial "plonk" is rarely ever an indication of kill file usage.
Those of us who actually *use* newsgroup filters don't feel the need
to announce such usage with a "plonk."
Furthermore, news articles don't necessarily appear to all of us in the
same order.
No, but they have the same NNTP posting time/date. Two minutes is
two minutes.
dizzy
2005-06-14 02:24:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by ric
Post by Richard Crowley
Post by ric
Post by Joe Sensor
Didn't you just "plonk" him two minutes earlier?
<g>
A ceremonial "plonk" is rarely ever an indication of kill file usage.
Those of us who actually *use* newsgroup filters don't feel the need
to announce such usage with a "plonk."
Furthermore, news articles don't necessarily appear to all of us in the
same order.
No, but they have the same NNTP posting time/date. Two minutes is
two minutes.
In Mr Crowly's defence, some kill-filters don't do anything until you
re-load headers.
dizzy
2005-06-14 02:24:07 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:13:18 -0700, "Richard Crowley"
Post by Richard Crowley
Post by dizzy
Post by glw82664
Now, when I turn
up the volume to even a moderate level the receiver stops transmiting
the signal and starts clicking. I presume the extra wire I added is
the problem.
You must have a short or an "almost short" that arcs-over at higher
voltages.
Where do you live that typical speaker voltages can "arc-over"
in an atmosphere that supports human life?
You're probably right about that. But it's still not as dumb as the
"skin effect" wierdos. 8)
Theodore Kloba
2005-06-10 14:39:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by glw82664
The wire I have been using, with success in other parts
of the house, is using a load of telephone line that I came in to for
free. It has eight wires in each run so I split 4 positive and 4
negative. It adds up to roughly 14 gauge.
Hopefully you've taken others' advice and bought some proper cable for
your speakers, but here's some useless technical data anyway:

Assuming the cable you have has four twisted pairs of #24 wire:

#24 AWG wire has a nominal area of 0.20 mm^2
#14 AWG wire has a nominal area of 2.08 mm^2

You would need more than 10 #24 wires in parallel to to have the same
cross-sectional area as one #14.

Nominal DC resistance of the #24 wire is about 26 Ohm/1000 feet. Four
in parallel is about 6.5 Ohm/1000 feet.

Nominal capacitance for cables of this type is in the range of 15-25
pf/foot between wires of the same pair. Without knowing how you
grouped the wires, the parallel capacitance (and therefore impedance at
audio frequencies) can't really be calculated.
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